[Marxism] Question re pro Assad lefts

mkaradjis . mkaradjis at gmail.com
Thu Mar 15 09:33:58 MDT 2018


Carl says "I think PYD control of Rojava is legitimate." Then he says
"I think all US troops (and weapons) should be withdrawn from Syria
(and Iraq)." So he is a mass of contradictions. Carl wants to still
pretend that the US is in Syria to fight the regime, whereas that has
never even remotely been the case. The US is in Syria in Rojava; with
the express permission, agreement, of the PYD (the SDF, dominated by
the PYD). So if he thinks the imperial Russian state is "legitimately"
obliterating Syrian cities and slaughtering thousands of people,
because the fascist regime invited it in, then why doesn't he think
the legitimate PYD authorities in Rojava can legitimately invite the
US airforce, special forces, military bases etc?

And I'll repeat my other question: Does Carl believe that Saudi Arabia
and its allies are legitimately bombing hell out of Yemen, since they
are invited in by the legitimate Yemen government, as explicitly
recognised by the UN Security Council (including by Mother Russia)?

On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 2:48 AM, John Reimann via Marxism
<marxism at lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
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> I think ALL imperialist forces should be withdrawn. that also includes
> Russian and Iranian. And they, after all, are the ones doing the most
> damage as far as human suffering. But what does human suffering matter when
> they are there "legitimately" according to capitalist law?
>
> John
>
> On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 8:31 AM, Carl G. Estabrook <galliher at illinois.edu>
> wrote:
>
>> I think all US troops (and weapons) should be withdrawn from Syria (and
>> Iraq). Don’t you?
>>
>> And the US should insist its 'NATO ally,’ Turkey, leave as well.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mar 14, 2018, at 10:21 AM, John Reimann <1999wildcat at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> So, in other words, Carl Estabrook has no objection to US troops in
>> Rojava. Nor, I take it, to the US bombing of Raqqa in preparation for the
>> Kurdish forces to take over that area. Some "anti US imperialism"!
>>
>> It leads to another question: Does he have any opposition to the US's role
>> in Mosul?
>>
>> John Reimann
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 8:11 AM, Carl G. Estabrook <galliher at illinois.edu>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I think PYD control of Rojava is legitimate, and the (Syrian) Kurds
>>> should be part of the general peace in Syria that the Russians have been
>>> trying to arrange - and that the US has been frustrating. Rojava has asked
>>> for Damascus troops to aid its battle against the Turks invading Afrin,
>>> thereby acknowledging its participation in the government of Syria.
>>>
>>> Obama’s attack on Syria is comparable to Clinton’s attack on Serbia,
>>> another less than admirable regime where the US 'presence' was
>>> illegitimate. —CGE
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mar 14, 2018, at 9:36 AM, John Reimann <1999wildcat at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I note that Carl skirts the question of whether he calls for the US to
>>> stop arming and aiding the Kurds (including having US troops in their
>>> territory.) That, after all, is the real main thrust of US involvement. But
>>> it also leads to another question: Does Karl consider the PYD control over
>>> Rojava to be legitimate? In that case, then their having invited in the US
>>> troops in makes the US presence "legitimate".
>>>
>>> Or take another example: The Mexican and Colombian governments have
>>> "invited" US forces in to spray huge swaths of land to get rid of poppy and
>>> marijuana crops. I suppose that makes their actions there "legitimate" too?
>>>
>>> This whole claim about "legitimace" or "legality" really shows how far
>>> the apologists for Assad & Putin have strayed from the most basic socialist
>>> ideals. Here you have a brutal, repressive regime, one that has been a
>>> stooge for the World Bank and whose economic policies could have been taken
>>> straight out of the pages of "The Shock Doctrine", one that survives by
>>> bombing and gassing its own population - never mind mass torture - and it
>>> asks for military help from another right wing regime. Since the laws of
>>> capitalist legality make that OK, then according to Estabrook and similar
>>> people, there's nothing to be argued with.
>>>
>>> John Reimann
>>>
>>> On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 12:05 PM, Carl G. Estabrook <
>>> galliher at illinois.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>> US out of Syria would include ending US support - or indulgence - for
>>>> its NATO ally, Turkey, who should also exit Syria.
>>>>
>>>> Russia - legitimately in Syria - seems to have placed limits on Turkish
>>>> action in Syria.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > On Mar 7, 2018, at 3:34 AM, John Reimann via Marxism <
>>>> marxism at lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > ********************  POSTING RULES & NOTES  ********************
>>>> > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
>>>> > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
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>>>> > *****************************************************************
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > I was recently asked about supporting the slogan US out of Syria. (My
>>>> response was yes if we include all imperialist forces, especially Russia
>>>> and Iran, who are really the main actors there.) But I got to thinking:
>>>> Since the US has intervened so decisively on the side of the Kurds, who are
>>>> uncritically admired by these same lefts, what has been their position? Are
>>>> they demanding that US troops leave Afrin and stop aiding the Kurds? Does
>>>> anybody know? (I know they were silent about US military action in Raqqa.)
>>>> >
>>>> > John Reimann
>>>> > Sent from my iPad
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>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> *“How can we expect righteousness to prevail when there is hardly anyone
>>> willing to give himself up individually to a righteous cause? Such a fine
>>> sunny day, and I have to go, but what does my death matter, if through us
>>> thousands of people are awakened and stirred to action?” *Sophie Scholl,
>>> executed by the Nazis 2/22/1943. She was 21 years old.
>>> Check out:https:http://oaklandsocialist.com also on Facebook
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> *“How can we expect righteousness to prevail when there is hardly anyone
>> willing to give himself up individually to a righteous cause? Such a fine
>> sunny day, and I have to go, but what does my death matter, if through us
>> thousands of people are awakened and stirred to action?” *Sophie Scholl,
>> executed by the Nazis 2/22/1943. She was 21 years old.
>> Check out:https:http://oaklandsocialist.com also on Facebook
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> *“How can we expect righteousness to prevail when there is hardly anyone
> willing to give himself up individually to a righteous cause? Such a fine
> sunny day, and I have to go, but what does my death matter, if through us
> thousands of people are awakened and stirred to action?” *Sophie Scholl,
> executed by the Nazis 2/22/1943. She was 21 years old.
> Check out:https:http://oaklandsocialist.com also on Facebook
> _________________________________________________________
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