[Marxism] "Tolerating racism"

A.R. G amithrgupta at gmail.com
Thu Mar 29 13:04:06 MDT 2018


So long as Sheldon is sullying Albert Einstein by drawing him into this, I
should post this exchange:

http://mondoweiss.net/2009/05/einstein-and-zionism/

Einstein's comments are of course, from 1946, before the Nakba and before
the State of Israel. Like Arendt and Chomsky, the comments about Zionism
indicate lack of hindsight. Einstein's comments indicate little more than
he believed that Jews should be able to live in Palestine as a community.
Indeed, such a community already existed and many Palestinian refugees
remember having friendly relations with the pre-Nakba *Yishuv* because
they, too, did not necessarily anticipate what the Zionist movement had in
store for them. Perhaps if they knew that 7 decades later, a "leftist"
would go online and say they can return only if they don't outnumber those
who displaced them, lest they be a burden, they and Einstein would have
been even more critical.

To suggest that Zionism as an actually existing nationalist ideology is in
some way compatible with these flowery notions 7 decades later is an
inexcusable whitewash.

Amith R. Gupta



On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 2:54 PM, A.R. G <amithrgupta at gmail.com> wrote:

> Sheldon is missing the point. "Zio" is not like "S**bo" or "K***" and it
> is not like someone redefining either of those words. Why? Because "Zio" is *already
> taken from another word, namely Zionist. *
>
> I have seen literally 0 evidence that David Duke is even the originator of
> the prefix and Sheldon hasn't posted any (I don't know how someone could
> possibly keep track of such a thing) but it should go without saying that
> the prefix is taken from another word, namely, "Zionist". If "s****" or the
> k-word or the n-word had been taken from another word that had political
> significance and was repurposed as a euphemism then it would be analogous.
> Of course, they aren't. The N word isn't short for Nationalist. The K word
> isn't short for Kahanist. S**** isn't short for Social Democrat.
>
> But "Zio" is transparently short for "Zionist". David Duke has also
> misused the term "Zionist" to refer to an international Jewish conspiracy.
> Unless Sheldon is suggesting that that term now also belongs to David Duke
> because he began repurposing it then this entire line of reasoning is
> self-contradictory bullshit. As usual it is yet another manipulative way to
> tie opposition to Zionism with anti-Semitism. Even assuming David Duke was
> the first and only person to turn "Zionist" into a prefix it would be
> irrelevant because he didn't come up with the term "Zionist". It has
> meaning independently of how Zionists and anti-Semites have redefined it as
> a codeword for "Jew".
>
> The effect of these long, drawn out, meaningless conversations is to
> police the tone and make it impossible to talk about Zionism openly,
> whether as a prefix, a noun, an adjective. How is this not racist? If
> Sheldon saw Palestinians as equals (rather than tokens or excess people)
> would this be acceptable? Of course not!
>
> Amith R. Gupta
>
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 2:43 PM, Sheldon Ranz via Marxism <
> marxism at lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
>
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>>
>> "He shortened it from the word "Zionist" which he also misuses. He doesn't
>> own any of these words."  Actually, he kind of does because Duke was its
>> chief - and unchallenged - popularizer.  Why did Greenstein take a word
>> that was already notorious on the Left and use that same word, instead of
>> coining a brand new word?  I would just love to see you go into an
>> African-American neighborhood and used the word "sambo" but announced that
>> you were going to use it in a new way because, after all ,why should we
>> let
>> white racists own that word?  I suspect something would happen to you
>> there
>>  that would prevent you from posting for quite a long time.
>>
>> "How is this not tokenism again?"  Oh, gee, I don't know, because it's
>> not?  She was just one example of a Palestinian I recently met.  She's
>> certainly not the only Palestinian who would agree with my "nutty" views
>> about Israel's Declaration of Independence, a view that was shared by that
>> other nutty racist, Albert Einstein.
>>
>> Sheldon Ranz
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 2:26 PM, Jeff via Marxism <
>> marxism at lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
>>
>> > ********************  POSTING RULES & NOTES  ********************
>> > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
>> > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
>> > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
>> > *****************************************************************
>> >
>> > On 2018-03-29 19:28, A.R. G via Marxism wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >> "If you know of forms of racism that are "tolerated" by the left, then
>> why
>> >> the hell aren't you fighting THAT racism? Can't you speak up when you
>> see
>> >> such injustice, AS THE REST OF US TRY TO? "
>> >>
>> >> That is literally all I have been doing.
>> >>
>> >
>> > Gee, I must have missed it. So for those of us who are such poor
>> readers,
>> > I wish Amith would point to forms of racism that are "tolerated" by the
>> > left and then we'd have something actual -- and indeed serious! -- to
>> talk
>> > about. Whether or not it's "literally" all Amith has been doing.
>> >
>> > And if Amith is going to talk about others' views, then he should be
>> > required to supply direct quotations, as I did twice in regards to
>> Amith's
>> > dubious charge that the left tolerates racism. Instead he does exactly
>> what
>> > he falsely accuses me of (which I'm sure he well understands, being a
>> > lawyer himself):
>> >
>> > so Jeff is
>> >> apparently doing the kind of thing that nitpicky prosecutors do:
>> purposely
>> >> removing quotes from context
>> >>
>> >
>> > When did I ever do that? Amith accused the left of tolerating racism,
>> and
>> > I can't find anything in his post which supplies a "context" that
>> changes
>> > the meaning of such a remark, but you can read his entire post for
>> > yourself. Here's the "context":
>> >     http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/pipermail/marxism/2018-March/281321.html
>> >
>> > Again, I'm not saying that Amith is wrong, just that IF he knows of the
>> > left tolerating racism, then he should bring it to our attention. And
>> > moreover, that the left tolerating one form of racism clearly isn't an
>> > argument to justify anything at all.
>> >
>> > I'm disturbed at the way Amith puts words into other people's mouths.
>> When
>> > I read what he writes about me, I learn that I have been busy searching
>> for
>> > antisemites among the left. Huh? No one who knows me personally, or who
>> has
>> > read what I write on this list (as you all have access to), would have
>> ever
>> > concluded anything like that! I don't believe I have ever accused a
>> leftist
>> > of being antisemitic (including when I suspect it's true, since I'm very
>> > careful about making my suspicions public). My concern has always been
>> with
>> > the left amplifying or adapting to positions of the RIGHT, and of course
>> > that does include antisemitism. And I'm concerned with the left being
>> > falsely branded as or seen as antisemitic, which is why Corbyn's
>> (possible)
>> > sloppiness became an issue that properly concerns us.
>> >
>> > - Jeff
>> >
>> >
>> >
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