[Marxism] New Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual Alliance founded in London

John Edmundson johnedmundson4 at gmail.com
Sat Oct 26 15:12:06 MDT 2019


It is not as simple as you suggest. No gender critical feminist I have ever
discussed this issue with sees sex as a simple XX/XY chromosome issue. They
realise that what results in someone being 'male' or 'female' is a
combination of chromosomes, hormones etc. And they don't appreciate being
called transphobic for simply wanting these issues to be discussed rather
than shut down (per Daniel's post above, "I can say that their arguments
tend to be exactly the same as racists and homophobes use against gay
and/or black men as predators. And they are as little open to actual facts
as racists and homophobes tend to be. Contradict them politely once or
twice and they’ll start going on about transwomen as ”rapists in drag”. ’m
not one for censorship, but if people get warned and thrown off this list
for racist, misogynistic or homophobic posting, why then are repeated
transphobic posting permitted?"

This characterisation could not be further from my experience of
discussions on this issue. I have personally never encountered
gender-critical people using arguments "exactly the same as racists and
homophobes use against gay and/or black men as predators." I have seen
calls for "TERFs" to be raped and murdered (without a squeak from the
leftist allies involved in the same discussion). Left allies of the trans
activist community tend to just pretend some of their allies don't hold and
express such views.

It seriously concerns me that calls for women to be raped and murdered
should be able to go unchallenged by the Left. It concerns me when I see
trans-activists (whether trans or allies I wouldn't know) being cheered for
saying lesbians just need a bit of their "ladydick", or that a lesbian's
refusal to have sex with a "lesbian" with a penis makes that "lesbian with
a penis" a victim of a transphobic "cotton ceiling". In any other context,
where the speaker didn't identify as a woman, statements like that would be
seen for the misogynist and anti-lesbian homophobia they are. Meanwhile,
all trans people are subsumed into a monolith. There are trans people who
see their situation as a "disorder" that they have to struggle with every
day of their lives. There are MtF trans people who refuse to use the term
trans woman to avoid being associated with the current trans activism. And
of course there are trans people who see gender self ID as the way forward.

It is a mistake for the Left to ride in, deciding the discussion is over
before it has really begun, and declaring anyone with a different view to
be in need of a warning and a possible ban.

If you think the long struggle undertaken by women to have safe spaces was
a mistake or is an outdated concept, if you think the existence of women's
toilet and changing facilities where women and girls can undress without
being watched by or exposed to self identifying women with male genitalia
(and possibly opportunistic men taking advantage of the relaxed
guidelines/taboos around such spaces) are an anachronism, then make that
case and engage in a discussion.

It would be an interesting opportunity for a debate that didn't degenerate
rapidly into name calling and calls for banning.

John

On Sun, Oct 27, 2019 at 5:15 AM MM via Marxism <marxism at lists.csbs.utah.edu>
wrote:

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>
> > On Oct 26, 2019, at 11:41 AM, Me <me at magnoliabloomberg.com> wrote:
> >
> > Biology is such a terf hey?
> >
> > https://twitter.com/lecanardnoir/status/1129742277134508033 <
> https://twitter.com/lecanardnoir/status/1129742277134508033>
>
> Ah yes: A random Twitter thread as authoritative source. Why didn’t I
> think of that? Actually, he sounds a lot like those “edgy
> anti-imperialists” explaining how criticizing US involvement in “regime
> change” in Syria doesn’t make them supporters of Assad. The fact that their
> premise is self-servingly wrong is irrelevant to them.
>
> Meanwhile, this seems better (as does the piece Daniel Lindvall posted):
>
> “Some sexual scientists have tried to chart the many different expressions
> of sex/gender identity, putting together formal models of what we know
> about variations in sexual identity (man, woman, something else), gendered
> identity (masculine, feminine, androgynous, something else; note: the term
> “gender identity” is often conflated with sexual identity, here I use
> gendered identity to refer to the degree a person is typically masculine
> and/or feminine for their society), sexual orientation (androphilic
> [finding male bodies erotic], gynephilic [finding female bodies erotic],
> bisexual, asexual, something else), mating orientation (monogamous,
> polyamorous, open, something else), and other important forms of sexual
> diversity.
>
> “Leading sexual scientist Sari van Anders (2015) recently made an
> excellent attempt at integrating several of these sex/gender diversities
> here. She distinguishes between sex (including male and female as
> dimensions), gender/sex (man and woman as dimensions), and gender
> (masculine and feminine as dimensions), emphasizing variation in the
> intensity of each sexual configuration. The esteemed Anne Fausto-Sterling
> (2012) has argued for using dynamical systems theory to understand varying
> influences on sex/gender diversity (see also Fausto-Sterling et al., 2012).
> She emphasizes the John Money's classic 5-sexes approach of Genetic
> Chromosomal Sex (XX, XY, 45X, 47XXY, XYY, etc.), Fetal Gonadal Sex (ovaries
> versus testicles and sex as subsequent gamete production), Fetal Hormonal
> Sex (in utero exposure to testosterone and subsequent organizational
> effects), Internal Reproductive Sex (uterus/cervix/fallopian tubes vs. vas
> deferens/prostate/epididymis), and External Genital Sex (vagina/clitoris
> vs. scrotum/penis). Sexological legend Milton Diamond also has a compelling
> model of sex/gender diversity he calls Biased-Interaction Theory (see
> Diamond, 2006). Sexual scientists have learned a lot about sex/gender
> identities, but really we’ve just begun to understand the causes underlying
> the myriad ways humans express their sexual selves. There is much work to
> be done.”
>
>
> https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/sexual-personalities/201605/sex-and-gender-are-dials-not-switches
>
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-- 
The law locks up the man or woman
Who steals the goose from off the common
But leaves the greater villain loose
Who steals the common from the goose



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